I am a real person, too and I do not Support Theodore Beale

I see that Theodore Beale has chosen today to be the day where he asks a ton of people to email TOR (and MacMillan) to basically convince them
that there are thousands of fans upset with the idea that Irene Gallo (referenced in my last post) is a horrible person to have called the Rabid Puppies Neo Nazis.

John C Wright has a similar post to Beale’s today.

You know what? I’m a real person too. I’m a real person who thinks that the shit that Theodore Beale has pulled in the community has helped inflame tensions and increase divides in the SFF community. I’m a real person who reads what Beale writes on his blog and sees that if Irene is wrong in calling Rabid Puppies Neonazis, its a pretty thin wedge. Anyone who dreams of the day that mass murderer Breivik will be as revered as George Washington is someone whose beliefs are toxic to the SF community. Anyone who believes discredited ideas on genetics and race and intelligence is toxic to the SF community. Anyone who believes that shooting at migrant ships in the Mediterranean would solve the issue of migrants is someone whose beliefs are toxic to the SF community. I could go on, and on, and on.

I’m a real person too. A real person who does not want the community to reflect the views of Theodore Beale and his rabid puppies.

I stand with Irene Gallo, and I stand against Theodore Beale and those who support him.

The Rabid Puppies are being asked to email MacMillian at these addresses:
tom.doherty@tor.com
andrew.weber@macmillan.com
rhonda.brown@macmillan.com

I emailed them in support of Irene Gallo.

52 thoughts on “I am a real person, too and I do not Support Theodore Beale”

  1. So it is okay to lie about a group if you don’t like a major figure in one of the groups. That is what Irene Gallo did.

        1. http://cdn.hellogiggles.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/18/Do-not-think-it-means.jpeg

          You should probably look up what an association fallacy actually *is.* It’s not what you think it means. Hence the meme. Rhetorical “you” to follow.

          Mr. Wagner is correct. If you don’t want to be associated with a man who by any reasonable account is morally depraved, maybe you shouldn’t associate with him. It’s really that simple. You don’t get to follow a figurehead and then say “but he doesn’t reflect my views.” You chose to follow under his banner, and by doing so, you associate yourself with that person’s views. You don’t even have the luxury of GamerGate’s non-organized structure, where you could quite rightly argue that there are no figureheads and so any individual action is an individual action. It’s just not that muddy.

          If you’re a Rabid Puppy, you’ve aligned yourself with Vox Day. The same would be true of the rest of us if we aligned ourselves with some anti-Puppy group whose figurehead was a person who argued for the mass expulsion of all right-leaning fans and writers from sf/f forever. I, however, won’t associate myself with that group because I want to be taken seriously when I say “I do not support the expulsion of all right-leaning fans and writers from sf/f forever.”

          So, it’s simple. You don’t want to be associated with what Vox Day believes? Don’t associate yourself with Vox Day by taking on the Rabid Puppy banner. Baking tatertots is more complicated than that…

          1. If I associate myself with Vox Day on an issue involving science fiction, I hold his political views, or should be held accountable for them, even if they have nothing to do with science fiction.

            Got it. You’re right, the logic is flawless. And by flawless, I mean stupid and ridiculous.

            The same would be true of the rest of us if we aligned ourselves with some anti-Puppy group whose figurehead was a person who argued for the mass expulsion of all right-leaning fans and writers from sf/f forever.

            But Vox Day doesn’t want that, and if he did, I wouldn’t support him.

            You know why? That view has to do with science fiction.

          2. An association fallacy is an inductive informal fallacy of the type hasty generalization or red herring which asserts that qualities of one thing are inherently qualities of another, merely by an irrelevant association.

            That is EXACTLY what you’re doing. You’re associating me with Vox Day’s political views because I agree, generally, with his views on science fiction.

            I understand things just fine, but you completely miss how you’re proving the point of both Puppies groups perfectly.

          3. So you all will disassociate with Samuel R. Delany and Marion Zimmer Bradley? Will you also disassociate with those who praise them and give them awards? Enquiring minds want to know!

            And if someone’s politics make excommunication a reality, I’m looking forward to all of you disassociating with every writer who approves of Communism (which racked up a much bigger kill score than Naziism, and is still killing people today).

          4. Malcolm,

            I’m sorry, but you really don’t understand what a guilt by association fallacy *is.* In fact, you glossed over one of the most important pairs of words in the definition you provided: “irrelevant association.”

            Here are some examples:
            http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/12-ad-hominem-guilt-by-association
            http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Association_fallacy
            http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/guilt-by-association.html

            You cannot honestly suggest that Vox Day’s politics are not directly associated with his Rabid Puppies “project.” That’s not an “irrelevant association.” It’s part and parcel of the project. If his personal politics were not part of this project, you’d have a point; but they are. They are to a degree that it is impossible to separate them, because he constantly and repeatedly puts them front and center in his discussions of the Hugos, science fiction, and so on.

            So, it’s not actually a fallacy to say “people who willingly associate with a bigot are associated with bigots.” That’s just fact. You are. You did so willingly. You’re still doing so. You could easily solve this: discard the Rabid Puppies label and stop associating with the man behind it.

            And it’s not particularly relevant whether you actually share his beliefs, because in the end, you’re lending power *to* them by giving him your voice. You can say “I’m not a bigot” all day long, but if you support a man who will use the power you give him to push bigoted ideas on the rest of it, it amounts to the same thing: more bigotry.

            Either you’re not particularly bothered by that — in which case, this conversation is over, because I don’t have any interested in conversing with someone who shrugs off bigotry like it’s no big deal — or you honestly believe you can associate with Vox without associating yourself with his politics — in which case, you’re painfully naive.

            I really hope it’s the latter.

        2. SMD explained things as well as I could, so I won’t repeat him. But I will add that it’s typical of Puppy dishonesty to whinge about “guilt by association” when their whole sales pitch has been to invent an imaginary “SJW” cabal seeking to censor and suppress all SF that the Puppies happen to like, and then throw that label at anyone who utters the slightest criticism of the Puppies, or who writes the kind of SF the Puppies don’t like.

      1. Irene Gallo publicly said things which are provably untrue and damage the reputation of the targets. That is, she libeled them. Do you understand how that works? Do you understand that viciously lying about people you disagree with is not an acceptable way to conduct yourself? Do you understand the difference between picking a fight and defending yourself once someone else has attacked you? Apparently not.

        1. If you understood libel as well as you think you do, then you’d understand that if Beale really thought he had a case he’d have hired a lawyer and filed within days of taking his screenshot, instead of holding onto it for a month and then posting it on his blog with the sole intent of disrupting the Nebula awards and fomenting discord on social media. It really is funny how easily this guy can play you all.

          Do you understand that viciously lying about people you disagree with is not an acceptable way to conduct yourself?

          Oh, then any minute now we should expect to hear your repudiation of Brad Torgerson calling John Scalzi gay, or Beale calling him a rapist.

          We’ll just wait here…

          1. Ah, but you see, Scalzi identified himself as a racist. As for gay, are you some kind of homophobe that you think that’s an insult?

            Wow, I didn’t know I’d be arguing with bigots like you here.

          2. Oops, that was supposed to be “Scalzi identified himself as a rapist”.

    1. Nobody’s lying about Beale and his supporters being at least a bit Nazi-like.

      Hell, there’s a commenter on Vox Popoli who believes the Holocaust was divine retribution for the Russian Revolution.

  2. So don’t support Beale. Unlike Tor, Beale hasn’t accused you all of being robots.

    Irene Gallo did not apologize to the fans or to the authors she insulted. She apologized to “people she hurt”. I am not “hurt”. I can get good books from other places, or buy them used. But her comments were unprofessional, and in ANY other business if an employee publicly makes those sorts of comments about fans and fellow authors, she would be publicly reprimanded and fired.

    But none of that matters, because Vox Day (who SJW’s insist on calling Theodore Beale, as if his pen name makes him Voldemort and Beale is like calling him Tom Riddle) is mean.

    Yeah, okay.

    1. I am not going to call anyone the “Voice of God” no matter how self deluded they are. Also your use of the term SJW is very telling. Finally, I wonder what is it about GG and Sad/Rabbit puppies that attracts such loathsome creatures like Beale. Those are the real questions here.

      And a final question, if you are none of those things, then it doesn’t apply to you, now does it?

      1. I wonder what it is about SJW-ism that rewards such loathsome creatures as Samuel R. Delaney (lifelong supporter of NAMBLA) and Harvey Milk (serial pederast).

  3. Anyone who dreams of the day that mass murderer Breivik will be as revered as George Washington is someone whose beliefs are toxic to the SF community. Anyone who believes discredited ideas on genetics and race and intelligence is toxic to the SF community. Anyone who believes that shooting at migrant ships in the Mediterranean would solve the issue of migrants is someone whose beliefs are toxic to the SF community.

    You realize you’re proving our point, right?

    Here is the difference between everything you’ve mentioned here and Gallo’s statements: None of these have anything at all to do with science fiction.

    But we should punish Vox Day (sorry, I shouldn’t write the name – Tom Riddle, I mean, Theodore Beale) because he thinks the wrong things. Not only that, we should punish all of the people associated with Theodore RiddleBeale because of their bad think.

    And meanwhile, actual science fiction? Well, who cares about that?

    1. Actually they do, if those are the motivations behind his writing and pushing for a take over an award show of all things.

    2. Golly, it’s as if people who are toxic, hateful, shit-slinging bigots don’t like being told it’s bad.

      You realize you’re proving our point, right?

      That you think Vox Day and his toxic, shit-slinging bigotry are acceptable? But everyone already knows that.

      And meanwhile, actual science fiction? Well, who cares about that?

      Oh, just the people out there writing, publishing, promoting and supporting it. Who include Irene Gallo. And who don’t include your buddy Vox, who’s made his desire to turn the entire field into a smoking ruin abundantly clear.

  4. So it’s okay to smear a whole group of people you don’t know by falsely calling them neo-Nazis, homophobes, misogynists, and racists?

    1. Again: If you don’t want people to assume you’re a racist, misogynist or homophobe, it is counterproductive to align yourself with people and “movements” that espouse those things.

    2. Beale supported Mein Kampf. Torgersen insulted Scalzi by trying to imply Scalzi was gay. See any of Beale’s writings about women, especially search for “acid”. And Beale was kicked out of SFWA for abusing SFWA’s twitter account by calling a black writer “half savage”.

      So I don’t see how the “falsely” part applies.

      1. “Beale supported Mein Kampf.”

        Elucidate, please. Do you mean he endorsed its worldview? Do you mean he thought it shouldn’t be censored? Do you mean he physically supported it by holding it above his head? Do you not even know what you mean because you’re just repeating accusations you’ve heard from others?

      2. Seth,

        Totally ignorant question: where did Beale state his support for Mein Kampf? I’ve seen him state why it shouldn’t be banned and even admire the work for what it is, but that’s a farcry from offering support for the ideas Hitler espoused.

  5. Can you tell the difference between picking a fight and defending yourself once someone else has started a fight? Apparently not.

  6. Loud applause.
    What baffles me is how deeply offended Beale is when others apply the correct labels to him. He is sexist, racist, and homophobic. He approves neo-Nazi views and activities. His own blog makes this clear.
    I’m a socialist feminist. I’m quite open about it. I don’t scream blue murder when someone calls me a pinko feminazgul.
    It seems to me he knows his views are shameful and offensive but while he wants to control public discourse about them, he doesn’t want anyone who disagrees with him to point out what he is, or indeed to speak up at all. Because in his facist world-view, free speech is only for him and his right-wing buddies.

    1. “He approves neo-Nazi views and activities. ”

      Cites, please? Not merely repeating what “everyone else” says?

      When you provide those cites, be sure to check the comments to be sure that he’s not merely applying atheist utilitarianism in order to criticize it (as he did with the “throw acid in women’s faces” commant).

    2. Could you please cite exactly which neo-Nazi views Beale has supported and where he did so? I don’t mean vague claims of Ra-a-a-a-acist!!!! I mean actual political positions espoused by people who claim themselves neo-Nazis.

      1. Did you see what Beale wrote in support of Mein Kampf? Is that close enough to an “actual political position” for you?

        1. No. Would you care to link to it?

          I’m just curious, by the way, has it ever occurred to you that lies are most powerful when they are mixed with truth. Is it conceivable that, in the mass of evil lies that is Mein Kampf, there are some truths that have otherwise been ignored? Is that what he was referring to?

      2. @Zaklog – Sure, you mean when Vox Day says things like below:

        “The laws are not there to let whites ” just shoot people like me, without consequence, as long as they feel threatened by my presence”, those self-defense laws have been put in place to let whites defend their lives and their property from people, like her, who are half-savages engaged in attacking them.” – Theodore Beale

        Or this:
        ” it is that we simply do not view her as being fully civilized ”

        Or this one:
        “it is not that I, and others, do view her as human, (although genetic science presently suggests that we are not equally homo sapiens sapiens), it is that we do not view her as being fully civilized for the obvious reason that she is not.”

        I’m curious as to how you’re going to handwave that away. Yes. Vox Day is a noxious, sexist, racist bag of shit. You don’t want to be painted with the same brush, you don’t get to follow his order and be under his banner.

        It’s kind of like the, “I was just following orders.” defense. You don’t get to follow orders, and then deny that it’s what you believe or get offended when someone points out how shitty it is.

        1. Is it even imaginable to you that a person might criticize one person of another race without thinking all of that other race are lesser creatures? Because, you see, nowhere in any of that did he call blacks in general half-savages.

          As for the not homo sapiens sapiens line, he’s referring to the fact that people of some races tend to have more Neanderthal DNA than others. Now tell me, are facts racist?

    3. By the way, do you know what the root word of “fascist” is and how it describes the ideology?

  7. <I<So it’s okay to smear a whole group of people you don’t know by falsely calling them neo-Nazis, homophobes, misogynists, and racists?

    Oh, absolutely. At least if you want to drive them out of science fiction and fantasy. We don’t want those kind of people here, and the place will stink less without them. At the very least we can get them to shut up and stay inconspicuous.

    Feel free to put whoever you like into “those kinds of people” as it works for Vox Day and Prince Justin equally.

    Of course, I suspect Mr. Beale is doing it on purpose in order to get people like me to look at what Ms. Gallo and Mr. Weimer write, and think: Huh. That’s… kind of awful. Maybe there’s something to that Puppy campaign..

    It seems to be working.

  8. There was once a time that making any reference to Nazis (or neo-Nazis) was considered proof that you had run out of arguments, and deserved to lose the debate ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law ). Saying “but it’s true” or doubling down on the comments doesn’t do much to distract from the fact that you haven’t put together an actually cogent argument.

  9. ..so basically we’ve got a bunch of Bozos (for the young that’s clowns) posting here who say sure Theodore Beale/Vox Day is a bigoted chauvinist with radical right wing views, strange Christian views and promotes the murder of unarmed people (he really did suggest shooting the refugees in boats, I believe) but HOW DARE THAT WOMAN CALL HIM A NEO-NAZI!!!!

  10. Please note that it is you who formally and without proper notice to me announce to the world that you are no longer my friend, and that you turn your back on me. I did not do that to you, nor would I.

    Your philosophy of life requires you to police the thoughts of other and judge their hearts as if you knew their hearts.

    Hence you have to pretend you know what is in Theodore Beale’s heart, even though, in each case you mentioned, you did not quote what he actually said, and you are not curious about what he actually thinks on those topics.

    Hence you have to ignore what Irene Gallo actually said. She called me, and every other Sad Puppy and Rapid Puppy author, a neo-nazi, and the fact that she and I are on the same team at Tor Books suddenly means nothing to her. Politics trumps professionalism.

    Hence you have to reject and insult me because I do not do what you do.

    My philosophy forbids me from pretending to know the hearts of men, hence I can work with any one, anywhere, who acts in a professional fashion, and I can befriend anyone who acts in a friendly fashion.

    Your own code, not mine, condemns what you are doing as evil.

    You are not willing to befriend Theodore Beale for my sake, because you and I are friends, but you are willing to cut off my friendship for Theodore Beale’s sake, because you and he are foes.

    My code spreads friendship; your code spreads hate.

    Your mind is descending down the toilet drain of evil, spiraling into ever smaller circles. Will you only befriend those who agree with you on everything?

    Change your path. It is not too late.

  11. I am a real person and I also stand against Vox Day/Theodore Beal. I don’t support Irene Gallo and her ill-thought out partisan exaggerations and sweeping inaccuracy. Nor any commenters who use absurd rhetoric to accuse their opposition of communism/nazism, being a censorious liberal/SJW, being a misogynist retrograde pulp fan, CHORFs, not true fans, or whatever is their group’s rhetorically insane insult of the day.

    But *mainly*, I don’t support Vox Day. Not because of this petty dispute that so many people are blowing out of all proportion, and lying and spreading misinformation about their opponents on, but because he’s provocative, dickish, scum. From his own words, he is a disgusting piece of shit.

  12. I also emailed the three addresses to indicate my opposition to the campaign by SP/RP to punish Irene Gallo for expressing views (perhaps a bit hyperbolically and imprecisely, but not views that are provably false) which many other people believe are true, especially about SOME members of the RP/SP groups, although certainly not all (hence the lack of precision).

    Do the Puppies really not understand the use of the word “respectively” in the original Gallo quote?

    Puppygate is like some bizarro game of telephone (remember that game at camp, kids?) where someone in the anti-Puppy side says X and the Puppies all hear Y and are horribly offended and thus animated with righteous anger swear a vengeance upon the original poster disproportionate to its original impact. Then the anti-Puppies see the RP/SP hordes baying at the moon for the blood of someone they think basically agrees with them and they stand up to defend the original sayer of X. And then the Puppies say “See how evil they are? They called us Y, all we wanted was to do Z!” And then the anti-Puppies say “What the heck does Z have to do with X? Puppies really are crazy!” And so it goes. On and on until Sasquan and beyond.

  13. Dear Mr. Wright,

    You base your argument on the fact that you misunderstood what Irene wrote.

    This is a quote from it.

    “There are two extreme right-wing to neo-nazi groups, called the Sad Puppies and Rabid Puppies respectively, that are calling for the end of social justice in science fiction and fantasy. They are unrepentantly racist, misogynist, and homophobic.”

    Do you understand the word “to?” It means, in the context in which it was used, that people within either group fall on a pole politically from extreme right-wingers to neo-nazi groups. It does not call either group neo-nazis per se. Using the word “retrospectively” hints that Sad Puppies may be closer to the right wing end of the pole while Rabid Puppies may be toward the neo-nazis end.

    So far no one has even attempted to argue that either group isn’t racist, mysogynist or homophobic which is, I think , a more serious accusation than suggesting an extreme right wing bias.

    I believe that Irene’s remarks were ill-advised from a person employed in her profession, in the place she put them, and she was reprimanded for it. I also believe that all this righteous indignation over one misunderstood word is manufactured and it doesn’t make either the Sad or Rabid Puppies look good, character or education wise.

    1. So far no one has even attempted to argue that either group isn’t racist, mysogynist or homophobic which is, I think , a more serious accusation than suggesting an extreme right wing bias.

      Your ignorance is not an argument. That you have not bothered to read the numerous defenses of Sad Puppies does not prove anything about them. By the way, moron, why would the racist white Brad Torgersen have married a black woman? Unless the accusations of racism are pure bulls—?

  14. Mr. Wright, I own a copy of your book “The Golden Age”, and I was quite amused by the fact that the plot got started when Phaethon turned off his adblock.

    I also met you and Ms Lamplighter at Worldcon, and briefly (we were on an escalator!) serenaded you both.

    In the spirit of purest friendship, camaraderie , and good will — the same spirit that leads you to inform us of our own errors — I must regretfully inform you that several of your statements have been less than accurate, and that you have committed various logical fallacies.

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